Home » LAW » Baer and Goldstein, Women and Education, pp. 498-500

Baer and Goldstein, Women and Education, pp. 498-500

Baer and Goldstein, Women and Education, pp. 498-500 


3 Comments

  1. I think breaching the topic of women and the challenges they face in certain educational and academic fields is very important. In fields like STEM, women aren’t valued or encouraged nearly as much as men are. The disparity starts from an early age for many, with boys being encouraged to pursue these fields more so than women. When I was in high school, a class about STEM was established and it focused on engineering. That class was mostly filled with boys who were recommended by their teachers. The teacher of that class was also male. The few girls that were in that class were often overlooked by the teacher and and never praised like he praised the male students for their designs. A girl dropped that class because she felt very discouraged. It’s behaviors like this that are responsible for gaps in the field as adults. As a result, the girls in my high school who were interested in STEM created a club dedicated to girls in STEM and it helped support each other and connected students with females in STEM fields, and also taught coding. This is why I think it’s important for women to uplift each other in a field that doesn’t shine brightly on women. We almost need to pave our own way.

  2. It is so important for women to fight for equal opportunities in education and academic spaces. If they aren’t offered the same treatment as male students or white students, women and people of color need to make their own space because admissions in schools of higher education remain biased.

  3. Nicole Solayman11:48 AM Apr 5
    The STEM field is a literal nightmare for women, but I am glad that there are women like Alice Rivera who are pursuing those careers regardless of gender discimation. The idea that STEM is a more masculine field is incredibly sexist and pushes the narrative that men are more rational and stable than women, when that is just a trope.
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    Desiree Estrada
    Desiree Estrada1:57 PM Mar 17
    Like many of my classmates it was inspiring to learn about Alice Rivera, it’s disappointing once again the gender biases. STEM does not have a gender specific orientation it is the social stigma that men have to have these jobs no one is inherently better simply because of their gender.
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    Jacqueline Harmon
    Jacqueline Harmon9:37 AM Mar 9
    Good for Alice, her accomplishments are great and give other women someone to look up to. Its so frustrating to see that STEM careers are seen as a mans job, and this is why more women do not pursue these types of careers. I have heard many stories from women who are in STEM and how they feel discriminated against.
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    Daniela Guerrero Rodriguez
    Daniela Guerrero Rodriguez9:25 AM Mar 9
    I agree with my classmates, the idea that men are stronger at STEM fields has no other reasoning but pure discrimination and gender roles. Because men have been considered historically as rational leaders and breadwinners, while women have been encouraged to stay home caring for the children, men are expected to succeed in these areas that require logic. I am happy that Alice de Rivera is recognized for efforts to fight back against an only-male school that did not give equal opportunities for both men and women.
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    Grace Castillo Rojo Moreno
    Grace Castillo Rojo Moreno1:18 AM Mar 9
    I would never understand why math or engineering are seen as a “man’s field” ?

    I do think that women normally choose careers that are “normally”for them because they’re afraid of being part where predominantly male are, the discrimination they can feel and the ideas of “ you can’t study that because that’s too hard for you or that’s not your field” that women grew up with, are important factors
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    Catherine Ortega
    Catherine Ortega10:19 PM Mar 8
    How exciting! I watched one of the videos posted by the Factual Feminist on YouTube that was about whether or not there is sex disrimination in education, or if it’s just that boys and girls are simply more inclined towards different interests! I found the question frustrating because of she provided statistics which showed how many men v women veered into certain fields in a given population, but followed it with no discussion surounding societal pressure or internalized gender roles. Sex and race desegregation are hand in hand, but in the case of sex opening up, opportunity isn’t the only issue. We see the conflict between interest and opportunity when looking at the controversy surrounding Title lX. I can’t wait to see where we go with this one.
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    Donny Situ
    Donny Situ10:14 PM Mar 8
    Very inspiring to read up on what Alice de Rivera had accomplished at such a young age. I did some more reading on this and it was frustrating to learn that even after Stuyvesant HS lost in court and were forced to accept girls, they only enrolled 12 girls in the first year. I wonder what the rational was when these schools were first established in the early 1900s and completely disregarded any accommodations for girls. Did they did not believe girls needed to be in a school specializing in math/science or did they not want women to succeed in these fields? Or both?
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    Jeff Gemini
    Jeff Gemini7:24 PM Mar 8
    Pushing one gender into specific jobs is gender discrimination and if females want to be engineers they should have that chance and be accepted into universities based on merits not based on gender.
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    Marina Pascual
    Marina Pascual6:19 PM Mar 8
    I thought the reading was very interesting. It’s great that the Court started considering intangible factors to evaluate if education was actually equal. I agree with some of the comments below that mention that public universities should never deny admission on the basis of sex (or any other protected class). If the university is receiving grants from the government, it should not discriminate. However, the reading does make me question whether private and parochial schools should continue to be able to deny students admission on the basis of sex. Although these schools may not always get money directly from the government, they are often benefiting from their 501c(3) status by paying less in taxes which is arguably an indirect government subsidy.
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    Annmarie Gobin
    Annmarie Gobin9:27 AM Mar 8
    What I found interesting in the reading was the emphasis that state schools had on pushing women to be nurses or teachers. I think the comparison between the segregation of race and sex shares many similarities. We saw how black people did not get the same opportunities as their white peers and we saw how men got much more educational opportunities compared to women. In terms of education, I feel like women have come a long way in advancing the fields that they are in. Nowadays, we see more women in STEM fields as well as business or other areas that were prodominently male oriented.
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    Ana Al Saad
    Ana Al Saad11:19 AM Mar 5
    In my History 433 class, we had a presentation from a professor that specializes in Romania during and after Communism. The focus of the presentation was women and gender and one thing that stood out to me was the cover of a children’s magazine that promoted STEM fields for girls and boys. As I was reading Alice’s story, it reminded me of that because here is a girl who became interested in science (biology), but she can’t go to a high school that specialized in that field because it was limited to only boys or the only other one a girl can apply to is plagued with stiff competition. Alice’s story happened in 1969, but it’s only more recently that women are starting to learn more about various STEM fields (the high school I went to became a STEM school during my first year). A figure of how many women work in STEM fields puts them at 28% (https://www.aauw.org/resources/research/the-stem-gap/) but it could be much higher if women were given the opportunity to learn about them and encouraged to take part in it in middle school and high school.
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    Jose Perez
    Jose PerezMar 10, 2020
    This article points out the barriers that involve gender and race. Alice was not afraid to apply to a school she knew would deny her and her willingness to fight for what was right. The school ended up settling and allowing her to enroll but she still did not attend the school as her family moved further away. Even though she did not attend the school, her actions paved the way for many young girls after her.
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    Elizabeth Peralta
    Elizabeth PeraltaMar 10, 2020
    I think that Alice’s story is important to the intersectionality that women or color face in institutions that are constructed against them. I think Alice’s story is inspiring because of how old she was at the time of all this and her determination despite all of the people that spoke against her and discourage her, given that she was only 13. I think it is also important to note that there were a lack of students of color in the school in which Alice was trying to get into. This shows how hard it was for minorities to get into the school, let alone a woman of color.
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    Liliana Diaz
    Liliana DiazMar 8, 2020
    I think Alice’s story shows us the importance of considering intersectionality because women of color, not only face discrimination on the basis of sex — but, because of the color of their skin. Even though it is illegal for a school to only accept white students, this made me think of modern day segregation and how uneven the opportunities are for students based on where they live and what they can afford and how we have set up barriers for minorities. I think Alice’s story is important because her case set off a wave of allowing women into certain schools and institutions.
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    Deleted user
    Deleted userMar 11, 2019
    I find Alice’s story interesting but also I do find it sad however sad that still today females most importantly women of color still today find it hard to be admitted into schools as Alice did. Still, in law schools medical school, masters and Ph.D.’ program, there is still a lack of female students as wells lack of diversity in female students and think while women have come far in the long struggle to fight for institutions to open doors the struggle still continues in terms of getting female diversity in our education system.
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    Jung Kim
    Jung KimMar 11, 2019
    Interesting read on Alice’s story: https://www.newyorker.com/culture/culture-desk/how-a-thirteen-year-old-girl-smashed-the-gender-divide-in-american-high-schools
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    Deleted user
    Deleted userMar 11, 2019
    Summary for Team 3

    By applying intangible factors to cases, the Court was able to bring to light the impacts of state-imposed racial segregation in our public schools. I agree with what Samantha said below. If you are a public institution which relies on federal/state funding to operate, it is unlawful to discriminate against any student seeking admission based on their sex/gender. Imagine if UIC started to deny women’s applications. If an institution is private and does not receive money from the government, then I believe that they should be able to set their guidelines for admissions and who they exactly want to admit to a certain extent. Imagine if UIC started denying women from being admitted simply because they were women? Public institutions should be accessible for all people.
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    Samantha Cazares
    Samantha CazaresMar 10, 2019
    Once the court started applying “intangible factors” to cases, the more interactional experiences of the effects of discrimination came to light. For example, when a black student was allowed admission to an all-white college, but was required to use “colored” sections of the college, he was technically not being discriminated against attending, but still being racially discriminated against nonetheless. Separate but equal was not so in that case because by requiring the student to sit and use limited sections of the college, he was unable to fully enjoy all the amenities of the college thus violating his rights guaranteed by the 14th amendment. When it comes to single-sex public schools, I think it’s unfair and unlawful to deny any student admission based on sex/gender. However, if the institution is private and relies on no federal assistance, then I think they are able to se their own guidelines of who they want to admit.
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    Ines Josefina Castaneda
    Ines Josefina CastanedaMar 9, 2019
    This was a topic that touched on in my CLJ Law and Society class because the law stated that everything had to be equal and the only difference was who could enter and use the infrastructure. This also reminded me of the scene of The Help when one of the women needs to complete some college level degree to work in her department and she ends up in court because non of the colored schools had the classes she needed. For this topic I think it is more race than gender but there can be some gender aspect if we look at it closely.
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    Deleted user
    Deleted userMar 20, 2018
    I see separate, but equal when it comes to girls similarly, but not exactly the same as I do race, especially when it comes to schools. In Rivera’s case, she wanted to go to a specialized school and there literally was no specialized math and science schools just for girls for her to go. So it makes sense that the schools had to become desegregated. Today, there are several all boys and all girls schools, but the girls at those schools get just as quality an education as other schools. When it comes to race, students at majority black or hispanic schools fare considerably worse than their peers. Inequality in this sphere is more pronounced in terms of race, than it is in gender.
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    Deleted user
    Deleted userMar 13, 2018
    So basically, she was admitted into Stuyvesant High school to avoid the establishment of legal precedent for all women to enter predominately male schools. If accepted she would have possibly suffered the same scrutiny as the little rock nine, but without the racial bigotry. It is interesting the accomplishments that she was able to make regardless of her attendance to Stuyvesant (shout out to Avneet for the article). It would have been nice to see the turnout of their case had she continued to the hearing for May 13. It may have led to strict scrutiny for gender…
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    Deleted user
    Deleted userMar 12, 2018
    Out of personal curiosity, I looked further into Alice de Rivera’s story and the beginning of Stuyvesant High School allowing women to attend.

    Though rejected and later accepted, Alice de Rivera did not actually attend Stuyvesant. She moved elsewhere, got her GED and went to med school, and was awarded a degree from Stuyvesant 40 years late. https://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-mager/alice-gets-her-stuyvesant_b_3491841.html

    Here’s an article detailing a female student’s experiences on being in the female entering class the year after Alice de Rivera and 9 other women were admitted. https://www.nytimes.com/1983/04/24/education/perspectives-girl-in-a-boys-school-the-way-it-was.html

    Here’s an article detailing an African American female student’s experiences at Stuy. This is moreso about the lack of racial diversity at the school, #358, which is an interesting insight after learning of the path and struggle to more gender diversity at the school. http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/26/education/black-at-stuyvesant-high-one-girls-experience.html?pagewanted=all
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    Christopher Nevarez
    Christopher NevarezMar 10, 2018
    It is interesting to see all of the overlaps between POLS 356 and POLS 358, where both women and people of color fight for their rights. I had read about the University of Texas Law School but to be reminded about this case is very important. How completely bigoted and diluted must someone be, to prefer the construction of a new school and the purchasing of new materials, all just to avoid the simple admission of a black student?
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    Deleted user
    Deleted userMar 9, 2017
    Many of the same struggles that African Americans went through and continue to go through are similar to those struggles which women go through. The worst part is that in today’s day and age we understand that diversity in classrooms broadens the perspectives, scope, and thus the students ability to learn and think about issues from different angles. It is to the benefit of everyone that classrooms are as diverse as possible but this was apparently not understood at that time.
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    Deleted user
    Deleted userMar 5, 2017
    Christen Lee wrote a comment earlier pondering what distinguishes race and gender under the Constitution and why one is considered a suspect class and not the other.

    Lee writes, “My answer would be that there is essentially never a reason to discriminate on account of race, while there are in fact differences between men and women that may be addressed in laws. This is the reason that it is unlikely that sex will ever be a suspect classification in the view of the Court.”

    I find this argument to be troubling for a few reasons. To say there are differences between men and women, differences that justify potential inequality under the law, is how we used to justify segregation of blacks in America. During the time of segregation, futile “scientific” studies on the brain sizes of African Americans in comparison to whites, for example, was enough justification to ascertain their second-class citizenship. You can argue today that there is “essentially never a reason to discriminate on account of race,” but that wasn’t the case some decades ago.

    I would also like to know what reasons Lee has that would justify Constitutionalized inequality of genders. Is it the same argument that women should stray away from the work force because they’re “scientifically” proven to be better parents and because a father is inherently better at working and making money? Or because women are too emotional and that is why they are not fit to participate in certain jobs? As you can see, many of the justifications we have against women hold as much water as comparing brain sizes between races.
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    Deleted user
    Deleted userMar 9, 2016
    This section was an excellent way to link 356 and 358. The first part of this section states that federal government and state governments play at least equal roles in education in contemporary society due to (1) the lack of sufficient state funding; and (2) SCOTUS has interpreted EPC to prohibit much of race/sex discrimination. While the rest of the section goes into great detail about the role of racial discrimination and the Equal Protection Clause, I think it is also instructive to question whether these two points held equal weight in the distribution of state/federal power in the education system, or if one (perhaps the former) may have (in reality) held more. Or, did these two variables hold different weight in different areas of the country (e.g. small towns vs cities, state to state, etc).
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    Deleted user
    Deleted userMar 7, 2016
    This was a very interesting read. The text went through the steps that were essentially taken by schools in Texas (and likely other places) during this time period. First the Court pressures schools to provide more equality so Texas basically sets up a University of Texas Law school for blacks. Obviously that law school wasn’t anywhere near equal to its white counterpart so the Court again pressures schools to provide similar tangible and intangible qualities. As a result schools begin letting blacks into the better white schools, but only to seperate them there where they still lack many intangible qualities, such as interacting with different people and exchanging ideas. This is where the link with gender specific schools comes in. Seperating men and women robs both sexes of that intangible quality of interaction as previously stated. Having a diverse group of people with different backgrounds helps to provide an exchange of different ideas. This is a vital part of any education. If you are only taught one way, how do you know its the best without having looked at any others?
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    Deleted user
    Deleted userMar 2, 2015
    The points that Tom and Kelly bring up makes me ask myself, what is the difference between racial distinction and sex distinction? The answer to this question will help to realize why the Court has never used Strict Scrutiny when dealing with laws that discriminate on account of sex.

    My answer would be that there is essentially never a reason to discriminate on account of race, while there are in fact differences between men and women that may be addressed in laws. This is the reason that it is unlikely that sex will ever be a suspect classification in the view of the Court.

    Christen Lee
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    Kevin Lyles
    Kevin Lyles
    NO, or is this is a typo? “the Court has never used Strict Scrutiny when dealing with laws that discriminate on account of race.” You mean, on account of Gender….right?
    Mar 2, 2015 (edited Mar 2, 2015)•Edit•Delete
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    Kevin Lyles
    Deleted user
    Deleted userMar 2, 2015
    “[T]o what extent do the Court’s statements about the intangible but real inequity of educational opportunity offered by racially segregated schools apply to sex-segregated schools?”

    As mentioned, the ability to broaden the application of these elements is largely hinged on the level of scrutiny used by the Court, and in this respect, gender has presented a lower hurdle to justify gender discrimination. As a result, the ability to apply the equal protection standards concerning racially segregated schools to those that are sex-segregated relies on placing race and gender on an even plane in regard to their equal protection standards.
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    Deleted user
    Deleted userFeb 28, 2015
    The courts have to address two distinctions when dealing with legally mandated sex segregation under the equal protection clause: (1) Does the separation amount to unequal treatment? and (2) If so, is the unequal treatment nonetheless justified under equal protection standards?

    I think that these two distinctions are important to understanding the court’s thought process in regards to legally mandated sex segregation. The only problem I have is the “justification” aspect of the second distinction. The justification they seek is based off the level of scrutiny they use; as we have seen the Justices have trouble agreeing on which level of scrutiny to use in regrades to gender-based classifications. Therefore, distinction number 2 is easier said than done.

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